Talking about Sex and Intimacy with Coach Dr. Jenn – OBHF Ep. 18

Talking Sex and Intimacy with Dr. Jenn

Stay tuned for more Dr. Jenn soon!

Teaching our children how to be comfortable talking about sex and intimacy is something few of us know how to do well. We weren’t taught how to do it, so how do we teach our kids? Well, I don’t know, maybe you were taught, but I wasn’t and neither were most of my friends.

But isn’t that our responsibility? Isn’t it one of the most important aspects of life as a human being? Truth is though, most of us suck at it. We feel awkward and vulnerable.

Paul and I wanted to teach our son how to be comfortable talking about sex and intimacy.

From a young age, while driving our bird around, Paul would say “vagina!” and “penis!”. Just so Jesse would hear those words out loud and not think of them as awkward. We started the conversations early hoping for some level of ease as he grew.

And yet, once school and society started influencing our kid’s perceptions he tried to avoid those conversations. At least with me. Said they made him feel uncomfortable, which was so shocking since we had not taught him that.

In this week’s podcast, Paul speaks with relationship and intimacy coach Dr. Jenn. Dr. Jenn is a sociologist and has an educational channel on YouTube called In the Den with Dr. Jenn. She’s a sex coach focused on helping individuals and couples get comfortable with intimacy, desire and consent.

The conversation was wide ranging including:

  • The familial and societal impacts on our sexuality
  • How couples can start talking about sex and intimacy once the kids are out of the house
  • The importance of creating a new version of sex as you age
  • The differences in socialization between girls and boys
  • Issues around consent for teen girls
  • Fear of teen boys being falsely accused of abuse
  • Three things young men should do for healthy, sexually active relationships
  • And more

Dr. Jenn will return soon with more on talking about sex and intimacy with your teens.

You can listen to the pod on the blog, on Apple, or your favorite podcast platform.

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  • Talking about Sex and Intimacy with Coach Dr. Jenn Transcript – OBHF Ep. 18

    [Music]

    This Our Bird Has Flown podcast is proud to be sponsored by the National Conflict Resolution Center at ncrconline.comcheck out their programs for reducing and eliminating conflict in the workplace relationships between businesses whatever you have The Natural Conflict Resolution Center has a way to solve conflicts.

    And our friend Carlos at greenfreshflorals.com.Green Fresh Florals one of San Diego’s premier florists we highly recommend them and we’re proud to have both of them sponsoring The Our Bird Has Flown podcast.

    From the Dusty Urban Ham Shack studio of WB6QWD lit by a single Edison bulb hanging from the ceiling, I’m Paul M Bowers [ Singing: Paul M Bowers]thank you ladies and this is The Our Bird Has Flown podcast [World Wide!].

    [Music]

    Well this time on the podcast it’s my pleasure and my privilege to welcome Dr. Jenn Gonzalez how’re you doing?

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:I’m doing great!

    Paul M Bowers:Dr. Jenn goes by Dr. Jenn and Dr. Jenn tell me a little bit, what’s your title in the world?

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:  So I’m a sociologist. That’s the doctor part of it with a specialty in sex and gender. And I do relationship and intimacy coaching with individuals and couples. My real passion is public speaking around the country on topics from consent, to erotic play in relationships, to female sexual desire. I have a whole video series on YouTube “In the den with Dr. Jenn.” How to be comfortable talking about sex and intimacy.

    My whole thing is around creating a paradigm shift in our society for healthy relationships and healthy sexuality.

    Paul M Bowers: Excellent so it’s Dr. Jenn’s den?

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez: drJennsden.com

    Paul M Bowers:Tell me how did you get into this? You started out as a sociologist. You went to school to study behavior or what?

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:  So I actually started, so I grew up in Pennsylvania. I went to Lehigh University as an undergrad and my sophomore year my roommate became a sexual health peer educator where you go around to the dorms and you do condom demonstrations and you talk about safer sex and then negotiating sex and condoms and it was, you know, it’s titillating, it’s sex.

    So, I was interested in the group. And then the reason I joined is because I wanted public speaking skills so at this point that was 25 years ago when I was 20. And so that’s actually how I became fascinated by sexual health, in the sex field and gender power dynamics and how people talk about and don’t talk about sex. And then I ended up getting, you know, getting my PhD in sociology and then creating my own niche.

    Paul M Bowers:So after college, you graduated from college and then what? You’d go into private practice with something like this? Do you go to work first in a corporation? What happens?

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:Well so I call myself a rogue sociologist. [Laughter]

    Paul M Bowers:[Laugher] A rogue sociologist?

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:Yeah, because as sociologists and getting, you know, a doctorate in sociology we are groomed to be professors of sociology primarily. Or to be researchers at some place like the Census Bureau or something. And I have, you know, moved away from academia and have created my own field around it so. Sociologists generally don’t have a private practice but I’ve created that for myself.

    Like I said, it’s like a sex coach and intimacy coach. And yeah so, no I just hung up my own shingle and started doing my own thing. And you know, as social media came out and YouTube came out and I was already creating videos and already teaching and doing workshops all of it’s been a really nice match for doing sex education in a really public way.

    How to be comfortable talking about sex and intimacy.

    Paul M Bowers: Well okay, a sex coach. Now, do you have like a Whistle? [ Laughter] So wait how does this work?

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:[Laughter] My daughter she’s unhappy, she would usually be like “move to the left, move to the left. [Laughter] What are you thinking?” Yeah.

    Paul M Bowers:You’ve got to be faster or slower in something.

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:It’s always got to be slower frankly.

    Paul M Bowers:Oh, oh, oh there [Laughs] I’ve got to make a note of that.

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez: Slow down. Now it’s, I mean coaching is compared to counselling or therapy. It’s really looking at where are you now and where do you want to be and what’s getting in the way of that.

    And when it comes to sex and intimacy and communication and relationships there’s often many blocks getting in the way.

    It’s just so much misinformation, embarrassment, shame. You know? Sex negativity that you learned growing up. And so, I help folks work through all of that and then give them skills specifically in mindfulness. Those are the skills that I teach a lot for folks to create new patterns and creating healthy relationships.

    So I am NOT in the bedroom with people. My clothes stay on, their clothes stay on. There are no whistles involved but there are mindfulness bells involved though so. [Laughter]

    Paul M Bowers:Listen, I visualize for a living so, it’s a good thing. [inaudible 00:05:22]

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:[Laughter] Yeah, you can run with that if you want.

    Paul M Bowers: Thank you for giving me permission.

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:Yeah, totally yes.

    Paul M Bowers:So, couples, individuals will come to you and say I’m having this issue with my sexuality and you take a history of some sort and you talk them through it or how does that process happen?

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:  Yeah, I mean I often start with just asking. I just want to know like where did somebody grow up? What you know, did you have siblings? What was your relationship with your parents like? Just to get a context and, you know, I’m a sociologist so I’m always looking at, you know, foundationally what did you learn? What did you learn about what it means to be a man or a woman? What did you learn about sex or what did you not learn? What religion were you raised in? And what was the context around sexuality and gender in that? And what were your earliest messages that you learned in your, you know, in the emotional framework you learned from your family?

    Because that, all of that, can’t help but shape our brains and shape our future relationships. So that’s a place I always look. And then helping folks realize, you know, a lot of what you learned is how you were socialized. But that doesn’t mean that’s natural or normal.

    And you can learn a new way of doing things.

    Paul M Bowers: Well it sounds like dating, those are the kind of questions that you asked a long time ago when I was dating.

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:Wait tell me what kind of questions you were asking exactly?

    Paul M Bowers:Those kind of things. It’s like about your past and it’s because you’re going, it’s the way that we decode each other. And when we meet somebody new although you specialty applies to sexuality, in just anything. How a person is going to react under stress. What a person’s going to enjoy. What they’re not likely to enjoy, in anything, in sailing or motor racing or whatever. It all has to do with these patterns in these previous teachings.

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:  Absolutely yeah.

    Paul M Bower:Obviously people break out of those at some point but more often than not they follow a pattern and that pattern is sociology right.

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:Yeah, I mean sociology is just a lot of things. So it’s psychology and sociology yeah. But you know I’m looking at the patterns that you learned because of the gender you know you were assigned. And what your race or ethnicity is. And what your religion was. And where you grew up. And you know all of those demographic factors and how they relate to how you are as a sexual being and how you even view sex and what meaning it has for you so yeah.

    Paul M Bowers:Tell you what, that sounds like a very cool job.

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:It’s never boring. I’m like people’s favorite guest at cocktail parties because I have the best stories.

    Paul M Bowers:That’s good, so, do you have to be paid to come to cocktail parties?

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:Food and alcohol is fine [laughter].

    Paul M Bowers:So you know, at Our Bird Has Flown in our podcast it talks about we’re talking about transition in particular. But the transition starts at the beginning. A couple gets together and well sexually let’s talk about that life pattern and how it goes from one place to another.Wwhere do you start and where do you end up?

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:  Yeah I mean it will be different for every couple but I do think there’s a lot of generalities you can make. And I mean, most couples start at a place of high passion you know, high romance there’s a lot of neuro chemicals in the first few months, in the first few years of relationships and sexual relationships. So, sex and intimacy seems easier. The excitement, the desire, the arousal is all there and it’s great and it clouds our judgment.

    [Laughter] Yeah, so and then you know, even like brain scans of brains of folks that are in early love versus you know a few years in like when you look at pictures of your loved one like different areas of your brain light up after a few years.

    It’s really much more related to trust and stability and you know it’s really knowing that person and feeling grounded with them. Which is kind of the opposite of all the excitement and newness from the beginning.

    And so that’s, you know, and I’d say as you know, as a society we’re really ill-equipped to know how to handle that shift. Often people think like I must not really be attracted to this person or they must not really be a good fit for me when they stop having that sort of natural easy desire for sexual activity.

    So, that’s a transition for many couples and then certainly you know, pregnancy and having kids and that. All of your priorities change and for a woman that’s gone through pregnancy and birth and breastfeeding like all of a sudden your body is not the purpose that you knew.

    Paul M Bowers:Yeah, yeah you know whatever, it’s not a big deal.

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:Yeah and so that’s just huge for everybody involved. And you know being able to talk through that and you know, women feeling exhausted and often their partners, you know, feeling rejected or that they don’t you know, have access to their body sexually. Access is probably bad terminology but being able to connect in that way anymore.

    Yeah, I mean, and there’s, you know, and then each stage as a child’s growing up. At each stage they’re going through and the teen years and all of that. So but I think to get, you know, to the main topic of your podcast here, you know, that’s a big transition obviously when the kids are out of the home.

    And I think, you know, you’re not the same person you were eighteen years ago or twenty-two years ago or whenever you started having kids in your relationship is completely different. And so, I think being able to have some really frank conversations about like well what do you want for the next 30, 40 years? You know?

    Who do you want to be, what are your priorities? Do you have dreams that were put aside? What do we create together? What do we want to do separately? Do we still like each other? [Laughter] Do we still have enough in common?

    Paul M Bowers: I would certainly hope so. And I can tell you that informally, my informal poll, and this is by no means a sociological effort statistically but the casual poll and this is no means social ethical effort.

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez: It’s not statistically rigorous…

    Paul M Bowers:No, the casual poll, I think it was on Facebook or something, the number one thing that parents looked forward to once their last kid was out of the house was walking around the house naked.

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:Yep.

    Paul M Bowers:I think of that as more of a dog whistle for autonomy. Its that they were there. They are returning to that autonomous life that they had before where they could do these kind of things.

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:Where they didn’t have to give thought. Right. It could just be free and easy and yeah, not having to prioritize.

    Paul M Bowers:Yeah, now you know, I’m a photographer so I’m naturally you know qualified to make these judgments,

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:Yeah, there you go.

    Paul M Bowers:But that’s what people were telling me.

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:But did they actually do it? That’s what I’m curious of, did they actually do it?

    Paul M Bowers:See that’s why you’re here because I’m asking you, have you had this, have you noticed this, is that truly, do people get past that and all of a sudden they’re finding this new world or tell us what to expect?

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:I mean you know you were joking, you know, when I said, you know, do you still like each other? You’re like oh, I hope so. A lot of couples don’t frankly. Because all, you know, so much of their focus went to being parents and went to raising their kids and making you know and getting their kids to be, you know, solid beings. So they could think for themselves and take care of themselves.

    And without that focus and sense of purpose and meaning let alone all the time involved in it a lot of couples find out they don’t necessarily still have things in common.

    If the kids aren’t there as the main focus and, so yeah, if you’re you know marriage, your relationship is something you really want I think sitting down and talking like what, you know, what are your main values? How do you want to spend your time? And then the sex piece because I think sometimes couples are like okay great now we can go out on dates, we can walk around naked, we can, you know, we’ll have sexual freedom. And no one else is in the house.

    You need to create a new version of sex and sexuality.

    Often if I mean and if unless you’ve had it regularly and you’ve been okay and you’ve been sexually active and have felt connected. That way but many couples haven’t after so many years. And so you might need to and want to create a new version of your sex and sexuality based on, you know, what your household looks like now. And what your bodies are like now and your age and your desires. And what works and what doesn’t and the impact of menopause and all those things.

    Paul M Bowers:That’s very complicated.

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez: It is often. Sex is very complicated. I’d have to say that’s something that men are like oh! What? So I was talking to somebody recently, I said something about consent and he’s like “so you taught a whole workshop on that? Like how do you teach a workshop on consent? Isn’t it just you make sure you get a yes?” And I was like it’s a little more nuanced and I just gave him like a five minutes spiel and he’s like “Oh, I bet that was a really dude thing for me to say,” and I was like “that was totally a dude thing’”

    Paul M Bowers:I have to tell you that sending off a young man into the world that was a big deal. And we taught consent. We have a kind of an unusual household so he’s not trained in roles where females are inferior or weaker. He from the very beginning he’s always seen these very strong female role models. But there’s a lot of stuff out there that erodes that message from home.

    And so we always stressed it a little bit. But I have to tell you I have great concerns about it. Not just from will he act out inappropriately? But will he be perceived to do so? And will he be held responsible even if he’s not? When they’re talking about other colleges where they were relaxing the evidentiary standard for sex crimes that’s a pretty scary thing for men because it means that well I’ve relaxed the evidence so, how do you advise so okay, our son Jesse he’s 18 as of today.

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez: Yay!!!

    Paul M Bowers:He’s off at college and he listens to our podcast.

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:[Laughter].

    Paul M Bowers:I’ve always said let’s go online and get some contract, so you can get signatures.

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:No, that’s a very black and white approach

    Paul M Bowers:Yeah, I mean I’m 59 years old, so I mean this is the way to be safer.

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:You just want to cover his ass, but it’s I mean, frankly… Well so one thing, it’s interesting what crossed my mind when you said you’re like that. And it’s something you and your wife have done a fantastic job of raising him.

    Paul M Bowers:Yeah, well of course.

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:We have gender equality and awareness of that. However, to recognize that and that he views women as equals and all I don’t actually think that’s necessarily the issue in a lot of you know, consent violations that men are looking at women is inferior. I mean that’s not the case.

    Sometimes I think it’s more so, I mean your sons been raised with those views but what’s missing from that is an understanding that many women are raised to be good girls in our society and are raised to be feminine and to go along with what someone else says and to be a pleaser and that saying no is rude.

    And frankly, I mean I’ve just had this conversation at a workshop I taught last night a young woman was sharing she’s like “my Nos are never respected,” when she says no! to a man or you know, expresses some reluctance he pushes the boundaries or he gets pissy or he gets a little sulky.

    So, I would say and I’ve had this experience pretty much my entire life and I’ve been with a lot of great men.

    But even really good guys, if you say no or put up boundaries they don’t have the skills to handle that.

    The emotional skills to handle that. And even if they’re not mean about it they still get quiet or they sulk or it becomes very socially awkward. And so to recognize you know, say for your son to recognize the girls are taught to put the needs of others first, to go along with things even if they don’t want you to be embarrassed and ashamed of their bodies and of their sexual desires to be taught that pleasing others is more important.

    And so, like that piece of it and to recognize that socialization is so different. Often I mean it’s quite opposite of what traditional masculine socialization is like. And that’s got its own host of bullshit frankly. But to recognize so even though you might look at girls as equal she might not have the voice that you have. Or you were taught to have as a male or just in general yeah, and that there’s just so much more complexity around it does it make sense?

    Paul M Bowers:It does make sense and it doesn’t make me less fearful.

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:No you shouldn’t, you can teach him that, you could talk to him about that.

    Paul M Bowers:Well certainly, I can teach him but I worry about what are other parents teaching their young women.

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:Well, so I’m going to jump in because I wish you had a daughter too because then you would see both sides of it.

    Paul M Bowers: Listen, you haven’t seen what college tuition looks like. If we had a daughter too they would be all…

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:No, like you would because and I don’t disagree with anything you’re saying so far however, your emphasis is on the side of your son getting victimized by this and if you had a young daughter and knew how horrible frankly it was out there for girls you wouldn’t be only speaking this side of it.

    Paul M Bowers:  My friend Tommy Gomes who was, he was here as a guest and he says, he’s a salty character right, he says “when you have a boy, you only have one dick to worry about but when you have a girl you got to worry about all of them.”

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:And that’s really, I mean that’s quite valuable. I was teaching a few months ago in New Orleans a workshop to some high-end CEOs and presidents around me in the workplace and all.

    And I had them, you know, do breakout sessions and while I was talking about in the workplace this one guy asked me specifically, because a lot of them had kids that were about you know teenagers and going into college and he was talking about like his son or I think a friend’s son out of school and he was talking about the same type of thing you were and I said “I’m like I totally get what you’re saying and statistically I’m like twenty of your peers in this room with daughters are going to have daughters that deal with some sort of sexual consent violation. I would put money on that.

    So statistically and, you know, I’ve got a  twenty to one statistic I have no idea frankly if it is but we know that like the majority of accusations of sexual assault are accurate like you know 92% of them at least. And so statistically it’s, you know, what you’re saying absolutely can happen.

    However, the impact on girls, the sexual assault, the sexual pushing, the coercion, the impact on their reputations, the impact on their self-esteem, the impact on their voice all of those things are a much, much bigger problem and huger problem overall. So yes.

    Paul M Bower:Certainly the consequences are greater for the female involved in this kind of thing. We’ll see.

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez: I’d say females as a, you know, as a gender in our society the impact is quite large and quite ongoing, like daily. And you know, the situations you’re talking about a false accusation happen much less. However I mean I shouldn’t not address that though because that shouldn’t be brushed under the rug because that does suck.

    But I mean most, you know, to do a false accusation, to do any sort of accusation of someone else specifically, about a female accusing someone about sexual harassment or sexual assault in any way she will always, always receive a backlash. She will be attacked, she will be judged for her character, she will be judged for how she dressed, she will be called a slut and now with everything online, it’s not just a light thing to decide you know.

    Paul M Bowers:And certainly yeah, if I led you to believe that I take these things lightly then I misspoke, I have my concerns, my concerns primarily are for our son because that’s the way that I’m wired.

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:Right.

    Paul M Bowers:Now, there’s no doubt that there is a problem that we’ve carried over from previous generations and we now have an opportunity to start unravelling stuff

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:Yeah.

    Paul M Bowers:And the way that we unravel it is very important to our futures though that we look at all these things. Yes, it’s important that we don’t reduce evidentiary standards but it’s also more important that we understand the other side of this so that eventually theoretically anyway we can come up with solutions and procedures. But still I’m baffled I don’t know what to tell him. How to make sure if one can actually do that.

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez: I mean and to me a lot of it which is why I use mindfulness at the core of my work. Like a lot of this comes down to a willingness to be socially awkward over and over again. You know? Cause why are people not asking? Why are people assuming?

    Why do, you know, people not have the voice they want in a sexual interaction? Because it’s really socially awkward and literally you can feel that in you.

    Whether it’s the fear or the anxiety or the shame or you know the judgment. Like those visceral sensations are super uncomfortable. And most of us learned a long time ago in childhood that anytime those sensations come up or the fear of those sensations come up, we just shut them down in one way or another. You know?

    Which is why a lot of, you know, alcohol is used as a social lubricant for easing into sexual interactions because it lowers, you know, that sense, the fear of judgment and you can just you know go with the flow of things.

    Paul M Bowers:So I’m sorry to interrupt you but that works both ways. Men use alcohol to reduce their gentlemanly impulses right?

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:They get more confident and they also get more like pushy.

    Paul M Bowers:Yeah, I don’t think I say, I would agree that they get more confident I

    think —

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:I mean research shows they do.

    Paul M Bowers:Well, I think they behave that way. What I think that they’re doing is they’re anesthetizing.

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:Sure.

    Paul M Bowers:Their morals and the standard.

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:Yeah, and their fear of judgment and fear of rejection, yeah absolutely.

    Paul M Bowers:That doesn’t make them, to me, because more confident men will be able to easily accept rejection

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:Right and be willing to check in absolutely as peers in those situations. Killing that feeling so that they can then proceed in whatever way they damn well think is okay.

    Paul M Bowers:Yeah, and that’s the thing and that’s why I’ve always had a problem when people say well alcohol makes you more confident. No, it doesn’t. It reduces your inhibitions to doing the right thing you know, you’re no longer feeling that pressure to do the right thing anymore.

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:Well and I do think it combines though for men and women that you do have those desires and whether it’s sexual desire and a desire for pleasure or desire to feel seen by someone else or attractive by someone else or valued by someone else or a connect physical connection with someone else.

    All of those are now desires that are there but they’re laden with a lot of fear of judgment and fear of being rejected or fear of doing the wrong thing.

    And so I mean, I think it’s a combination of things I think some of it is and the alcohol just reduces our fear of those judgments in rejection and allows us just to plow forward with some you know base urges. Some that are sexual but some that are you know, genuine around you know feeling emotionally seen and connected with another human.

    How to be comfortable talking about sex and intimacy.

    Paul M Bowers:And then that big one power and control.

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:Yeah, yeah and it’s funny I’m not a feminist or a sex educator that actually speaks of power a lot which is interesting. I think there’s more subtlety and nuances that often drive things more than just like a need to have power over someone else. Not that that doesn’t drive people sometimes but I think it’s maybe more nuanced than that so.

    Paul M Bowers:So, you know give us a couple sentences. Jesse you’re at college what should you do?

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:So I mean, one thing that I said already is just that awareness. You know? I got to do a session a few years ago like two coaching sessions with an 18-year-old when he was about to go off to college. He was having like some sexual concerns and his dad got in touch with me and so I had two sessions with the 18-year-old and it was amazing!

    Because I got to, you know, talk with him through all of his fears. I got to tell him about, you know, girls and their body image issues and how they’re taught to be pleasers and how like what it really means to be a good lover is to be very present, is to be very aware, is to you know look at the human being in front of, you know. And if it’s a female in this case and like really appreciate her and get to know her and ask her questions and explore her body.

    You know each body is unique and different and so, you know, and so what I would say to him is like one get that there’s very real gender differences. And how we’ve been socialized very differently you know, really honor and respect the human being in front of you. And, you know, three, learn to be socially awkward which is like literally checking in.

    And so and I’ve had some guys say “I asked if I could. I asked for a kiss before I did it and she was like don’t be a pussy, you know, just kiss me and I was like great,” and that’s horrible that she said that. Like it’s horrible.

    That’s her own that got in the way her own discomfort with vulnerability in that moment I go. However you could still stand above that and you can be like well I’m sorry if I made you uncomfortable but like I actually respect you and honor you and I don’t want to do anything you’re not interested in doing.

    And if you can learn to own a phrase like that with confidence and like genuinely mean it you’re going have the freaking women flocking to you frankly, because like girls are going to talk about you and women are going to talk about you because you’re different than other dudes and they feel safe with you and they trust you and you really honor and respect them and they don’t feel pushed.

    But that’s a you know that’s a level of building confidence with social awkwardness and creating a new social norm.

    But even at that basic level and then you check in you know you’re like “your breasts look amazing, is it okay if I suck on your nipple right now?” and while you know that is going be awkward at first you just make that your new normal and it’s freaking sexy when you do it.  You know?

    Paul M Bowers:Well would that require an addendum to the contract?

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:  That’s why I hate the contract. The contract is all about yes or no to intercourse. What about the 40 things you did  thatlead up to that?

    Paul M Bowers:Well sure, I’m visualizing a contract that have like checkboxes and the two parties would exchange them and check the boxes of things that they would be willing to do and maybe there’s a red circle around things that they wouldn’t do. How would that work? [Laughter]

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:So, I’ll give you a C+ on that idea. [Laughter] Okay you’re almost there you’re working your way up.

    So, I love that idea in general of couples doing it however the fact is most folks, many couples don’t even talk about condom use. Make assumptions around that.

    We don’t have comfort about frank honest conversations about sex and sexual needs.

    Particularly young women. They’re absolutely socialized to never have that type of comfort to be able to sit down and do that. Most couple will never won’t do it at that level. Especially young couples. Especially if they’re just hooking up. So I love that idea. That’s the type of stuff I tell couples that I work with to do like there’s things online that you can do and like what type of stuff do you like. You know.?

    Paul M Bowers:So why did you give me a C+ if you’re telling me because college students..

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:Well, the majority of them would never do it, it’s unrealistic. It’s a great idea and there’s one other piece too. What if you put YES, on there and then you know you start moving towards that with the person you’re with. You have a right to say no anyway. Like it doesn’t matter what you said ahead of time because it depends on whether you like what they’re doing, you feel safe with them, you’re interested, they have skills in this or not. Your body is kicking in and turned on, maybe it’s not. Like it all needs to be organic.

    We need to be teaching those skills which is that level of like I said, social awkwardness, willingness to check in in the moment. Honoring the person in front of you that they may be wanting and thinking very different things than you are. So there’s so many nuances around it and we are never taught to understand our own nuances let alone understand someone else’s and someone else who’s been socialized in our society in a very different way.

    Paul M Bowers:Okay, I’m looking at the computer and you’re out of time! Would you like to come back another day?

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:  Absolutely. [Laughter]

    Paul M Bowers:Excellent so Dr. Jenn thank you so much for sharing with us. We’re going to have you back as soon as we can. How do we reach you, how do people reach you if they’d like to?

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:  Yeah so, my main hub for things is my doctor Jenn’s Den website which is drjennsden.comMy YouTube channel which has over 220 free videos on there. Wducational videos is dr Jennsden.com that’s all my social media is that handle as well. Excellent 220 videos yeah at least I’ve been doing it for a while!

    Paul M Bowers:Listen you know, if I get a C+ I’m not going to make my scholarship.

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:Alright B – [Laughter]

    Paul M Bowers:Thanks Dr. Jen and we’ll look forward to having you back as soon as we can.

    Dr. Jenn Gonzalez:Thanks.

    Paul M Bowers: Bye, bye.

    [Music]

    The Our Bird Has Flown podcast is proud to be sponsored by Green Fresh Florals at greenfreshflorals.com and the National Conflict Resolution Center at ncrconline.com.

    We are produced at the ramshackle dusty urban ham shack studio of WB6QWD. Be sure to check out our website at ourbirdhasflown.com where we talk about getting ready for college and what happens afterwards.

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    [Singing: The Our Bird Has Flown]

    [Music]

    [Singing: WB6QWD].